Case Study: Draining Wound

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead Instructor]

I had a golden retriever come to the clinic about a month ago with a couple of small puncture wounds on her lower back above the tail. I prescribed some antibiotics and sent her home.

Yesterday she came back. She now has profuse drainage from the wounds. I knocked her out and probed them to make sure there wasn’t a foreign body up in there somewhere. Didn’t find anything.

I’ve laid out my herbal plan for her but thought it would be a good exercise for everyone to think through this and come up with a treatment strategy.

So, what would you do externally and/or internally to help this pooch? You can use any herbs or other resources you want. Don’t worry that it’s a dog. The same principles and plants would be directly applicable ot a human case. If you recommend one of the few herbs dogs need to be careful with I’ll tell you. Otherwise, assume it’s identical to a human case.

So, whaddaya tink?

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

1 user thanked author for this post.

janet grenleski

[Fey]

A few questions…..

What is the age of the dog?

Is the dog active or sluggish?

Is it despondent, happy, or distressed?

Does it have a temperature?

Was the wound weeping freely or as gluggy goops?

Was it clear fluid, bloody, or containing pus?

Has the wounds changed in appearance since the first visit, for example, the size and depth of the wounds and are they gaping open?

Does the dog have a history of healing fast or slow?

Is the wound affecting her movement?

In your professional opinion, does it look as if the puncture wounds were done by an another animal or by something like barbed wire or other object?

Is she eating and drinking ok?

Any swabs taken for greeblies?

Thanks Doc

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

Good Questions.

Fey wrote: A few questions…..

What is the age of the dog? 4 years

Is the dog active or sluggish? active

Is it despondent, happy, or distressed? Seems a little more subdued than usual

Does it have a temperature? low-grade fever

Was the wound weeping freely or as gluggy goops? Weeping freely. Strong fetid odor

Was it clear fluid, bloody, or containing pus? Dark brown, stinky.

Has the wounds changed in appearance since the first visit, for example, the size and depth of the wounds and are they gaping open? Openings are slightly larger. Cavity is markedly deeper. Definitely tissue destruction going on in there

Does the dog have a history of healing fast or slow? Fast

Is the wound affecting her movement? No

In your professional opinion, does it look as if the puncture wounds were done by an another animal or by something like barbed wire or other object? Don’t know. Possibly an animal bite but the dog wouldn’t say.

Is she eating and drinking ok? Yup

Any swabs taken for greeblies? Didn’t do a culture. There’s definitely a significant bacterial infection do to the goo and odor.

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[cheryldmooreStudent]

OK here it goes. First I would use something to pull out the infection. My first choice would be a plantain poultice. After the poultice was removed I would then put on chaparral salve (sorry about that – but for any deep infection I like to use Chaparral) and bandage. I would do that 3 times a day.

Doc’ Reply:

I love plantain poultices. I’ve seen them do some amazing things over the years. Chaparral is a great choice for killing things. A salve wouldn’t be my first choice on a puncture wound but would be great on something more “open”.

[IdahoHerbalist]

Doc’s replies in blue:

Fey, thanks for asking such GREAT questions. I knew there were questions that needed to be asked but I only thought of 2 or 3 of the ones you did. Now to put my thinking cap on.

Thinking out loud for a minute here:

Puncture wound, so comfrey and the like should be held off for the time being, especially in a compress. Maybe in very small quantities once the healing process can be started.

Yup. Comfrey is pretty much contra-indicted on a puncture wound. We don’t want to close things up until drainage is complete.

I would think some plantain to draw the toxins away would be in order, both as a compress and internally.

Probably some Oregon Grape or Barberry to help fight the critters.

There are a number of things that could be provided to help the liver do its job as well.

Yup. All good ideas.

I believe the fever and the mood will improve once the treatment starts working.

It did…Almost immediately.

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

I started treatment today and dog is already much improved.

Keep the ideas coming you guys are barking up the right trees so far (sorry, couldn’t resist).

Just as a teaser, I’ll say that I’m also using a technique none of you have mentioned yet. 🙄

I’ll confess all after a few more folks have had a chance to think through this and chime in.

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[IdahoHerbalist]

Patrick, STAINLESS STEEL is NOT an herb!!!!

Oh, one other thing I just thought of would be just plain HOT COMPRESSES. I have done that to draw out yuckies from below the skin before.

Doc’s reply:

Yes, in the absence of anything else, just heat will loosen things up and keep them moving.

[Laura L. BergesonStudent]

Doc’s reply in blue:

Perhaps alternate the plantain poultices with washes of grindelia infusion? The grindelia is “strongly antimicrobial, anti-inflammatory and accelerates wound healing.” Grindelia could also be made into a poultice, but the dog may enjoy just having a drawing plantain poultice on part of the time and a grindelia wash done every couple of hours or so in between when the wounds are open to the air.

Washes are a great idea and exactly what I chose in this case. Grindelia (gumweed) is a great choice for wounds but I opted not to use int in this case due to the high oil content. Because of the deep nature of this particular wound, I thought it bests to stick with more water-soluble plants so the body could easily remove any “leftovers”.

I would also get echinacea down the dog orally, or maybe oregon grape root powder, along with some good fermented vegetables for probiotic support.

Fabulous. Echinacea is a great choice. Oregon grape would be a very good choice too (not as a “maybe” to Echinacea but as an “also” 🙂 )

The fermented foods are also brilliant. Anything we can do to support the body and normal function is going to be a blessing to this pooch. Fermented foods or probiotics are particularly beneficial if we’re doing anything antimicrobial internally.

[Fey]

Doc’s reply in blue:

My first thought was for Bentonite clay poultice…..no? Not a herb? Well then…. Only because you say so….

What about bread poultice? That’s not a herb either?

Full points for bentonite clay. I don’t care if it ain’t green!

Bentonite clay has wonderful drawing properties. I’ve never used in it in a poultice but have always meant to. I guess I use flax for my strong, mechanical drawing agent. I do use bentonite for a number of other things. I’ll try it in a poultice next time. Thanks for the reminder.

Bentonite clay……

I wanted to use Yarrow, because it’s analgesic and antibacterial, but it’s styptic and we need the wound to drain.

Yarrow has many properties in common with Calendula. I’m not sure drying things up a bit would be a bad thing in this case. It was way too sloppy in there.

Bentonite clay?

Comfrey is too moist to draw a copious drainage and like IdahoHerbalist said, it heals wounds over too fast and so an ulcer can form underneath.

Yup.

I know…..How about Bentonite clay. Followed by raw Manuka honey topically. (I want that one :blob: )

Honey is great topically for wounds…particularly open wounds.

Using herbs from the course, I’d:

Put on some latex or plastic gloves

Irrigate the wound with a saline solution or diluted peroxide solution and trim the hair around it.

Internally:

Alteratives Burdock root, echinacea root, plus dandelion root to help the liver and kidneys expel toxins from the body and to support the healing process and immunity system. Also high chlorophyll wheat grass…blood cleanser increases blood oxygen and for immune support.

Oregon grape root, strongly antimicrobial, reduces fever, and anti inflammatory to the mucous membranes of the gut following the antibiotics. (I liked Sagewoman’s probiotic remedy)

Topically to draw the pus:

powdered Plantain to draw,

an itty bitty pinch of cayenne to bring an immune response to the area.

This is a great trick. A little bit of cayenne seems to really super-charge plantain’s drawing powers.

A small amount of powdered Goldenseal because it’s excellent as a contact antimicrobial.

Mixed with water into a paste and applied as a poultice.

Great choices.

(And for me, because I’d do it while Doc Jones’ back is turned….A few drops of Homeopathic sulphur)

Homeopathics are allowed if you’re smart enough to know how to use them. I’m not…but it’s on my list.

Once the wound is clean and has finished draining, I’d then use cooling and drying yarrow root as a poultice (analgesic styptic and antimicrobial)

And because Doc Jones has to turn his back at some time;

homeopathic Hepar Sulphuris Calcareum 6X internally for pus

Mercurius Solubilis 30C for acrid discharges,

Hypericum 30C specific for PAINFUL puncture wounds. Five drops of each three times a day for three days. (This could upset diehard single remedy Homeopaths) (and Doc Jones)

But still….Bentonite clay will draw out infection, splinters, swelling and it is a local for me.

Just as a point of interest, and it sounds really wrong, an old farmer told me he uses automatic transmission fluid (new stuff, not used) on infected wounds that won’t heal no matter what. One of my goats had a torn udder that went as far as having milk dribbling out. Our vet isn’t Doc Jones, so we tried it and it worked shockingly fast without infection. No stitches!

(And here’s where another disclaimer will follow what I write 🙂 )

OK…That one I’ll turn my back for. :blink:

[Fey]

Just as an after thought; is anybody a bit concerned about poulticing a deep wound? If it’s deep and narrow, then poultice material could get caught down in the wound. A drawing compress, wrapped in some type of porous material might be better.

I’ve poulticed lots of puncture wounds over the years and gotten good drawing. The small size of the opening tends to prevent stuff going in and I’ve never had any problems. I am more careful with deep gashes where stuff might get trapped. In those cases, I use a cloth around the poultice so only juice and no particulates are getting in.

The dog also needs access to plenty of water to help the herbs to flush the yucky stuff.

Yup

[cheryldmooreStudent]

Doc’s replies in Blue.

I like the clay idea… to draw out the toxins. I have never used, but have some black ointment. Would that work to draw the toxins outs?

I would avoid anything with blood root in it. It can be really caustic and this tissue is already very stressed.

I would not use comfrey because I want the wound it to heal from the inside out.

Agreed.

I have to admit I was thinking topically only so great ideas about about supporting the liver. And great questions to ask before you decided what to do. OK one other thought how about Dr. Jones’ venomous Snake and Spider bite formula. Follow the same procedure for a poisonous snake bite making it into a poultice and taking it orally?

I think that would be a great choice. The herbs in that formula are essentially what I used internally. It would be good as a poultice for this case too though I might add some flax (or bentonite) and a pinch of cayenne to get more drawing as this kid had tons of exudate. 🙂

[IdahoHerbalist]

Is the only difference between a poultice and compress that the treatment material is either direct or indirect contact?

[parshley]

Doc’s replies in Blue:

I would have plantain over those puncture wounds. I suppose there are other herbs that could draw stuff out also, but I use plantain for that generally. Because this has gone on for a bit, I would be concerned for infection so would want an antibiotic but no dog in his/her right mind is going to down something like Super Garlic Immune. People don’t like it never mind dogs, though it works.

Yeah plantain seems to be coming up a lot and with good reason. :nod:

I love garlic in humans. It’s a great immune stimulant, antimicrobial, anti-viral and a dozen other things. What’s not to like? Unfortuneately it can be toxic in dogs so probably not our “first grab” in this case. Great choice for a human though.

Being a puncture wound, my first concern is tetanus. Of course I don’t know if dogs get that or if they get tetanus shots, but just ruin with me on this.

so I want to treat it as best I can both internally and externally. I want to 1. increase the strength of the immune system 2. use an antibiotic internally and possibly externally 3. draw the infection out best I can.

To increase the strength of the immune system, I would probably use Echinacea with licorice as a synergist. I would use this through out the day.

probably as an internal antibiotic I would use berberine and usnea, both work against gram positive bacteria which I believe tetanus is and that is a concern I have here.

topically, first I’d use plantain. Let me explain something here…. Last summer a friend had a serious bone infection. He said MRSA but I dont’ know if that is accurate (he loves drama). He was in the hospital for weeks for antibiotic treatment and they kept opening up his foot to scrape the bone where the infection was. He refused herbs. that was until 3 days before they decided they needed to amputate the foot. Feeling like there was nothing to loose, he said he would try my plantain. I made a poultice of it and put it on his foot. I had him soak his foot in a plantain infusion. Overnight, the redness and pain dropped. Two days later, the docs looked at it and decided they didn’t have to amputate. It was nearly healed. They did, however, warn him against the dangers of using herbs.

So that being said, I would put a plantain poultice on, hoping to draw out any infection that I could from the outside. After having such on and changing it regularly for a few hours, I would then bind up the wound with powdered berberine and myrhh mixed equally. I would also add comfrey to this mixture. Pack the wound with it.

I also would be a bit concerned that an infection might have gotten into the blood stream. To that end, a bit of red clover as a blood cleanser added to his water would be good. However, using red clover – a blood cleanser – w/o making sure the entire body is cleansing, could cause more problems than it cures. to that end, you might also give juniper to be sure the kidneys continue to work efficiently and something to be sure its bowels are going well.

thoughts???

Carnivores don’t get tetanus. It’s a sissy herbivore disease. Other than that, I’m with ya. :thumb:

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

Some very good ideas so far guys. I’ll wait a bit longer for other folks to chime in (I”m getting lots of “I can’t remember how to get into the forum” emails).

Dog continues to do well. 🙂

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[Fey]

IdahoHerbalist wrote: Is the only difference between a poultice and compress that the treatment material is either direct or indirect contact?

It was nearly midnight here :crazy: with a storm raging. A poultice has the actual herb, powdered and made into a paste, or fresh and mostly mashed, on the skin or between gauze or material. A compress is the material or gauze with the liquid only. Like you said with the hot compress….. I wonder how a compress, with just the liquid from the plantain would go? I’ve never tried that.

Bread poultices are well known for drawing out things like little splinters that can’t be felt with a probe.

[Granny.BStudent]

Bread Poultice could still qualify if one were to use 100% whole wheat bread. Wheat is an herb afterall. (TeeHee)

[Laura L. BergesonStudent]

Granny.B wrote: Bread Poultice could still qualify if one were to use 100% whole wheat bread. Wheat is an herb afterall. (TeeHee)

Doc’s replies in Blue:

I’m envisioning the dog reaching around and trying to lick the bread and milk off his back. I don’t think that the poultice would last very long! :crying:

This is a common problem with dogs. 🙄

When I am doing a long term wound case on a dog, I always let the dog eat any of the leftover fresh poultice herbs rather than throwing them away. Some of them like them, some don’t.They seem to like them much better after they get a lot of pus and goo on them. :crazy: Never kiss a dog!

I keep thinking about giving the dog garlic cloves as an antimicrobial, but have read that garlic and onions can be toxic to dogs. Doc Jones, is that true?

That is true. In a human garlic would be a great option. But for dogs, you can over do it with garlic and onions. They should only be used in small amounts in formulas, not as a large-dose single herb. In dogs, the alium genus (garlic and onions) can cause significant anemias if overdosed.

[IdahoHerbalist]

I have been reading through the modules again today (review for this exercise and part of my editing job) and came across one of the herbs in the wound management module: FLAX

Doc indicates that flax is a good drawing herb and also provides mucilage for soothing the irritation. I have always wondered why he had that bottle of flax on the shelf! :boggle:

[tmillerStudent]

Doc’s Replies in Blue

More tissue destruction, weeping, bad smell? Hmmmm… Infected and potential gangrenous? I’d still ask more questions: First, what part of the herb would be most conducive to healing a dog? BARK, of course. So, I’d use White Oak Bark as an infection fighting astringent and to help draw out the infection and prevent blood clotting. Next what? Ah, what is the ROOT of the problem? Maybe marshmallow root to demulsify while using an astringent, regenerate and especially stop any possibility of gangrene. With the SMELLY infection ,I know that “like often cures like,” so I’d use fresh ground garlic sparingly just in this poultice (the rest of the concoction I’d give orally too). This was a Golden Retriever, right, so, I would be drawn to just a bit of Golden Seal to also help fight infection and as additional astringent. I would also use fresh ground or powdered Plantain LEAF to draw out poisons, and Comfrey and Mullein LEAF to demulsify and regenerate. Yes, I do think I’d LEAF it at that. 😉

Good stuff Tom. There was no gangrene yet. But if we hadn’t drained and flushed, I think that’s where it was headed.

Garlic in a poultice is a great idea BTW. Don’t know why I’ve never tried that.

ORANGE you all glad Tom chimed in? WEED never have thought of topical garlic. 🙂

[Fey]

Doc’s replies in Blue

Was there dead flesh? If a wound has trouble healing in a healthy dog or person, it could be because necrotic flesh is holding bacteria in the wound. Some sort of enzyme treatment like maybe a natural meat tenderiser powder containing papain or bromelain might work. (I suppose I better not mention maggots to clear away dead flesh. It seems like I’m always talking about gross stuff.)

I know I mentioned honey earlier but it also has an enzyme called catalase that is supposed to eat away dead flesh. It’s also a strong antimicrobial.

Ultra violet light…… But I can’t think of a way to direct it from the sun without sending poor puppy up in flames.

A herbalist should have a scalpel I suppose to cut away dead flesh.

I actually think maggots can be very helpful in some wounds. You don’t want them in a deep wound because you can’t keep track of them. But on an open wound they really can clean things up. The conventional wisdom that they won’t eat live tissue is completely false though so you have to make sure they don’t get too exuberant. At a recent vet meeting I attended there was a vendor promoting his business selling medicinal maggots and leaches.I thnk I’m the only guy that talked to him all week.

The British navy learned long ago that the enlisted men survived wounds better than officers did. The enlisted men laid on the deck in the sun and had maggots in their wounds. The officers were kept in the hospital quarters below decks with their wounds bandaged so they could get gangrene.

Removing dead stuff from wounds is really important and there’s no reason to be scared of it. It’s pretty easy to tell living from dead tissue and since it’s dead it doesn’t hurt or bleed when you cut it.

This is all for entertainment and education only. Persons with dead stuff on them should, of course, consult their doctor. 🙄

[IdahoHerbalist]

Doc’s reply in blue:

Fey wrote: It seems like I’m always talking about gross stuff.)

A symptom of standing upside down for too long, I am sure! 🙄

I don’t know…I think hanging upside down on the other side of the planet “down under” there has perhaps caused increased blood flow to Fey’s brain. Maybe that’s how she got so smart. 🙂

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

OK, seems like we’ve heard from those that are going to chime in.

So, I’m going to go back to the individual posts and respond in a different color rather than quoting them all and making three more pages of thread.

Here’s what I did with this dog.

First principle in a case like this is to ask our favorite herbalist question: “Why is something wrong with you?” Why didn’t these wounds heal right up a month ago when I gave the dog her antibiotics? In my experience with such cases the answer is usually that there is a foreign body continuing to cause irritation. Foxtail (Cheat grass) seeds are a common problem in this area. Dogs in this area also commonly encounter small lead projectiles if they’re out chasing the neighbor’s cows!

So, I knocked her out and went fishing. I have a pair of long alligator forceps that is just the ticket for such fishing explorations.

To my surprise (though the draining holes were smaller than a pencil in diameter) the wound channels on this kid were about 6 inches deep and several inches wide. I fished and fished but found nothing. Next I took an x-ray. No bullets or shotgun shot either.

As long as she was sleeping, I flushed the wounds by shooting hydrogen peroxide in using a large syringe (no needle). Peroxide is great for these situations because the intense foaming drives junk out of the wound. Most vets or physicians would continue flushing the wound with peroxide. This isn’t ideal because peroxide used long term can delay healing and be damaging to tissue. The cells in this poor pooch are having a tough time of it already without having to deal with all that. As herbalists, we have better solutions.

In this case, I wanted to work on several angles:

Internally:

Immune stimulation

Detoxification

Cell/tissue protection

Locally/Topically:

Antimicrobial

Accelerate healing

Cell/tissue protection

I’m a huge fan of poultices but the wound channels on this dog were so deep, and the openings so small, that I didn’t think a poultice would have sufficient drawing power to pull the gook out. I needed to be more aggressive. The other problem was that the wound openings were right above the dogs tail so the mechanics of wrapping a poultice and keeping it on were pretty much insurmountable on a happy, waggy, wiggle-butt dog like this. If it were on a limb (or anywhere on a human…humans are remarkably well behaved) I likely would have used a poultice in addition to the other things I did.

So, rather than fighting a poultice I made a hot infusion of Calendula, goldenseal and Echinacea. My reasons for these choices were as follows:

Goldenseal: Strongly anti-microbial with a broad spectrum of activity. One could also use barberry, oregon grape or other high-berberine plants. For this particular application (injecting the solution into the abscess), I didn’t want to use any plants with a really high oil content like gumweed, myrrh or chapparal. I worried about leaving anything in there. I wanted something with high water solubility so the body could easily get rid of any left overs.

Calendula: Another great anti-microbial with high water solubility. Calendula is also anti-inflammatory and vulnerary. Many of you expressed concern about comfrey as a vulnerary in a puncture wound and you’re absolutely correct. Comfrey is too strong for this application and would be particularly bad if only applied to the orifice of the puncture wound. We don’t want ot button up the opening before all the goobers are out! Calendula is a milder vulnerary so it’s making the cells happy and increasing proliferation but is doing so in a more gradual, subdued way. Since I’m shooting it inside, the wound will heal from the inside out. The other reason I wasn’t worried about the vulnerary properties is that I didn’t anticipate doing the flush for more than a few days. Another reason not to use comfrey in a flush like this is that the mucilage is pretty likely to clump up and stay behind and not flush out. I don’t want to leave anything in there so herbs high in mucilage are out.

Echinacea: Echinacea topically? Yup. It has some antimicrobial and immune-stimulating properties when used topically but the thing I wanted most was its propensity to inhibit hyaluronidase and stimulate production of hyaluronic acid. Hyaluronidase is an enzyme produced by bacteria ( as well as in some snake and spider venoms) that liquifies tissue.

You can read more about Echinacea, hyaluronidase and hyaluronic acid here:

I made the tea, let it cool and strained it thorough a cotton cloth. Straining is super important if you’re going to infuse a deep wound. You don’t want to leave any particulates in there. I then flushed the room-temperature tea into the wounds daily.

Internally

Internally I used the following herbs. The dry herbs were mixed into a little “meatball” of canned dog food and fed to her. She thought it was great! Dog food is her FAVORITE!!!

Echinacea:For the same reasons listed above, though the immune-stimulating properties are going to be better internally. Echinacea is a mild herb and needs to be given about 4 X daily in such cases.

Cleavers: One of my favorite herbs. Cleavers is a mild diuretic but, most importantly, is a great lymphatic drainer. Getting the lymph moving and clearing the lymph nodes is a great benefit in these infection cases. Cleavers is also a good liver protectant/restorative (like milk thistle).

Plantain: Also a mild diuretic. Plantain also has amazing powers to clear toxins from the body. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used it on septic wound or blood poisoning cases with fabulous results. Plantain could also have been added to the flush or used in a poultice.

Dandelion root: A nice liver and kidney tonic to keep things moving and facilitate removal of the toxins from the wounds.

Marshmallow root: A nice soothing demulcent to make the guts happy.

Licorice: As a catalyst/harmonizer.

What?! No anti-microbials internally?!

Nope. I didn’t think she needed them in this case. She’d already been on an antibiotic for a while. When she presented, her temp was only 1 degree over normal. After I flushed out the wound the first time, her temp was normal. I thought the local anti-microbial infusion was adequate for solving this “local” problem. Even herbal antibiotics can be overused internally. We don’t seem to have the resistance issues that pharmaceutical antibiotics have (herbs are chemically vastly more complex) but we can still upset healthy gut flora if we over do it.

Could they have been added? Sure they could. In this case I didn’t think it necessary and, as it turns out, that was correct.

After two days of treatment, the drainage all but stopped and the wounds were so contracted that I really couldn’t get anything to go into them. Sent her home on the oral stuff for a week and will re-check then.

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[Fey]

Doc’s replies in Blue.

I have never used, but have some black ointment. Would that work to draw the toxins outs?

I would avoid anything with blood root in it. It can be really caustic and this tissue is already very stressed.

Did Cheryl mean Black Salve or something like Magnoplasm? I think the old Magnoplasm was black wasn’t it? They make it white now.

Hey Doc Jones, now you have to teach us how to knock a dog out (or person). 😉

Poor little puppy. What would have happened to her if she’d gone to a different Vet? It’s stories like this that just keeps renewing my faith in herbs.

IdahoHerbalist: we might hang around like bats here down under but we don’t have our head in the clouds. Is the air thin up there? :Laugh:

[IdahoHerbalist]

Fey wrote: IdahoHerbalist: we might hang around like bats here down under but we don’t have our head in the clouds. Is the air thin up there? :Laugh:

Hey! Fey made a joke!!! :tomato: hehe Thanks for that.

Just a minute, let me catch my breath.

Patrick, thanks for running us through this exercise. Not nearly as beneficial as actually seeing and touching the case, but sure does get the brain juices flowing.

More please? :thumb:

[Granny.BStudent]

Doc,

Curious if you had to knock the dog out every day that you irrigated the wound. Seems it would be painful for the dog each time since the wound was so deep and raw.

By the way, this is a GREAT method to do a case study. I enjoyed the thinking process.

Thanks.

[Laura L. BergesonStudent]

About the Black Salve:

Dr. Christopher’s Black Drawing Ointment”s ingredients are: Olive Oil, Chaparral Leaf, Comfrey Leaf, Red Clover Blossom, Mullein Leaf, Plantain Leaf, Chickweed, Lobelia, Golden Seal Root, Marshmallow Root, Poke Root, Pine Tar, Mutton Tallow and Beeswax. I seem to remember that they took the Bloodroot out of the formula. With the ingredients that are left, do you think that this would have been a helpful salve to use on the dog and when would you have used it in the process?

Thanks for this exercise! It was great and I enjoyed everyone’s comments.

[IdahoHerbalist]

SageWoman wrote: With the ingredients that are left, do you think that this would have been a helpful salve to use on the dog and when would you have used it in the process?

Not knowing what all of those herbs intentions are I can pass on one thing. Doc has taught me, and many others, that simple is usually better when approaching a case. If you have a very complicated formula and something goes haywire, it is easier to diagnose with a simple formula.

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

Fey wrote:

Doc’s replies in Blue.

I have never used, but have some black ointment. Would that work to draw the toxins outs?

I would avoid anything with blood root in it. It can be really caustic and this tissue is already very stressed.

Did Cheryl mean Black Salve or something like Magnoplasm? I think the old Magnoplasm was black wasn’t it? They make it white now.

Hey Doc Jones, now you have to teach us how to knock a dog out (or person). 😉

Poor little puppy. What would have happened to her if she’d gone to a different Vet? It’s stories like this that just keeps renewing my faith in herbs.

Black salve in this neck of the woods usually has blood root as the main ingredient.

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

Granny.B wrote: Doc,

Curious if you had to knock the dog out every day that you irrigated the wound. Seems it would be painful for the dog each time since the wound was so deep and raw.

By the way, this is a GREAT method to do a case study. I enjoyed the thinking process.

Thanks.

Nope. She was a good girl. Her eyes got pretty big and she looked at me like I was crazy while I was doing it but she didn’t act painful or fight it. The thing puckered up so quickly that I could only flush if for a couple of days anyway.

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[Fey]

Doc Jones wrote:

Doc’s replies in Blue.

I have never used, but have some black ointment. Would that work to draw the toxins outs?

I would avoid anything with blood root in it. It can be really caustic and this tissue is already very stressed.

Did Cheryl mean Black Salve or something like Magnoplasm? I think the old Magnoplasm was black wasn’t it? They make it white now.

Hey Doc Jones, now you have to teach us how to knock a dog out (or person). 😉

Poor little puppy. What would have happened to her if she’d gone to a different Vet? It’s stories like this that just keeps renewing my faith in herbs.

Black salve in this neck of the woods usually has blood root as the main ingredient.

Doc

It’s the main Black Salve ingredient in Australia too. :woot: there’s a shock for ya’

Cheryl didn’t say Black Salve…… She only said Black ointment,which could be a number of things.

So I was wondering if she meant Magnoplasm because it is more of an ointment consistency than Black Salve, which is more of a paste.

I was saying Magnoplasm is only good for little splinters.

[drericfjones]

Wow; this is an awesome platform for learning. I was excited to learn that Doc Jones had taught well. I remembered a dog with a leg sanded in half and the treatment was amazing. I had no knowledge about a deep wound with so much liquid pus and infection. Before I read any of the other blogs, I thought “a plantain poultice with a pinch of cayenne’ after cleaning the would would be a good start. I had not thought of the importance of healing the outside and strengthening the inside at the same time. Echinacia and Burdock or Dandelion root would help with bacterial healing inside and assisting the kidney and liver :yahoo: . What about turmeric to add as a support for strengthening the liver? :yahoo:

[Fey]

drericfjones wrote: What about turmeric to add as a support for strengthening the liver? :yahoo:

I love Turmeric; it’s an awesome herb. Mine has really taken off in the garden this year and I’m waiting for it to flower before I take a photo of it. It’s supposed to be one of the stronger anti inflammatories so it could really have helped the puppy’s pain.

I wonder if it was given to people and dogs regularly, would a wound be less likely to become infected? Doc?

IMO it’s one of those “super herbs” that people should take every day.

Here’s a really good way for people to have it easily without having to cook up an Indian meal;

I dig up a bit of ginger and Turmeric rhizomes, cut off half an inch of each and put it in a blender with a peeled lemon and honey. Make it up to 600mls (20 fl oz??) with water and drink it.

About two hours later you’ll notice that any lower back pain has sneakily gone.

I’ve only tried this with fresh rhizomes.

If you make up a few litres and put in the fridge, the colour intensifies over a few days.

[Laura L. BergesonStudent]

Wow Fey! That tumeric/ginger drink sounds delicious! May I ask what your elevation is that you are able to grow tumeric?

My husband and I took Dr. Jones advice to heart and instead of taking the dry herbs in capsules, have been stirring them into our green drink in the morning. That is one spicy drink!

[Fey]

Hi SageWoman,

We are 850 metres above sea level (2,790 feet). Winter gets down to -6C (approx 20F) with frosts, some black frosts, but no snow. We might get sleet sometimes.

Summer gets to around 43C (about 110F) and strangely, we are classed as cool temperate. Those are upper and lower limits though. We have a long growing season of 6 months with no frosts. The turmeric grows here without any trouble at all. It survives the winter because it dies back to the rhizomes. I grow mine in the shade house because of the heat, right next to the ginger and Galangal. The galangal doesn’t die back.

I don’t pay any attention anymore to what people say I can and can’t grow. I make micro climates for many plants.

I didn’t know altitude was significant in growing Turmeric. In fact, I find that growing instructions for both Turmeric and Ginger are very contradictory over the Net. In the end, I went with my gut. Semi shade, medium moisture, and I’ve got a loamy soil.

How high up are you? Have you ever grown Turmeric or Ginger? I love hearing about the different herbs people grow.

Also, I find that fresh ginger and Turmeric isn’t as harsh as when it’s dried.

I’ll take some photos tomorrow and put them in the herb growing section.

I just checked your intro….6,800 ft!! Now I can’t wait to hear what you grow up there and how you do it!

[Laura L. BergesonStudent]

Our mountain valley is surrounded by an igneous laccolith upthrust with peaks over 10,000 feet, so even though on a map it looks like we are in the high desert of southern Utah, our weather patterns are affected by the high elevation of 6800 ft. and the sun being occluded by the peaks so it sets earlier in the afternoon. Short days and cool temperatures! We get down to 20 or 30 degrees (f) below zero and have snow all winter, but in the summer it can be in the 90’s. Our indigenous plants are Pine, Fir, Juniper, Big Sage, Aspen, Cottonwood, Willow and so on. I can wildcraft Mullein, Yarrow, Grindelia, Juniper berries, and Elder.

As far as what I can grow, the plants have to be hardy because our growing season is short. We usually plant after the first week of June and sometimes get our first killing frost in August. Comfrey grows very well. In my garden I also have a huge raspberry patch for fruit and for the leaves. Other things I have grown include Tansy, Avens, Oregano, Thyme, St. John’s Wort, Garden Sage, White Wooly Horehound, Cayenne Pepper, Feverfew, Honeyberry, Mallow and Hollyhock, California Poppy, Hops, Narrow Leaf Plantain, Catnip, Peppermint, Spearmint, Garlic, Onion, Chives, Horseradish, Red Clover, Curly Dock, Jerusalem Artichoke, Hopi Sunflower and Oregon Grape Root. These all do well, with some self seeding and coming up on their own, and others needing a little more help.

Other plants such as Brigham Tea and Buffalo Gourd I have tried to grow and they just don’t thrive (even though they grow all over in our area up to about 5500 feet.) We also do well with Gooseberries, Mountain Currents, Chokecherries and apple trees of the hardy varieties.

We have considered getting a greenhouse, but it would have to be heated in the winter, the snow brushed off the top and the snow shoveled just to get out to the door. I haven’t been able to convince my husband that it is worth it yet! In the meantime I am focusing on learning the uses for plants that actually grow here and buying my tumeric and ginger.

I’d love to hear how others of you manage to grow a variety of herbs with a short growing season. Fey, it sounds like you have an ideal situation. And goats too!

[IdahoHerbalist]

For those trying to extend the growing season but can’t manage or afford a full blown greenhouse go look at this thread and let’s discuss it.

[Fey]

SageWoman, I posted a reply under the heading of ‘Turmeric’ in the “cultivating herbs” section.

[IdahoHerbalist]

There is so much great info about Turmeric I have been consolidating posts about it in the Turmeric thread.

Let’s put all of the turmeric posts there so it will be easier to find.

[Coree]

Doc’s response in Blue.

Do dogs get staff infections? She has an open wound and everyone knows dogs like to role in putrefied matter for that lovely perfume smell, they like so much! If she has fragranced herself then she could have introduced different bacteria that are causing her not to heal, and have more issues.

I would try a combo of herbs as a poultice and as an internal dose as well.

Comfrey

Calendula

Yarrow

Gumweed

Plantain

Echinacea

Marshmallow

Oregon grape

Possibly add some cayenne for the iron boost

As Steven mentioned below, comfrey is not advisable in puncture wounds because we don’t want them to close prematurely. All the rest could be useful in a case like this though. Also, I’m not aware that cayenne is particularly high in iron. It does wonders for circulation though. 🙂

From what I know about humans, if they are not healing, they need to work on getting their electrolytes balanced. Not sure about dog electrolytes.

Electrolyte issues in dogs are basically identical to human issues. Any time you’re dealing with a serious wound, it’s important to have the patient on a high plain of nutrition. 🙂

Doc

[IdahoHerbalist]

Coree, I think everything you mention is great, except for the comfrey. The wounds on this patient were puncture wounds. Comfrey would tend to close the wound on the surface and trap everything inside. If you have not had the opportunity, read through the previous posts and see Doc’s responses to the rest of our input.

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead InstructorTopic Author]

Just an update…

I saw this dog yesterday.

It’s been 8 months since the treatment. Dog is still doing great. The infection never returned.

Doc

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

[Author]

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