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Dawn
Hello Doc, I can’t find Grape leaf anywhere, near nor far ;( I found the cytokyne reducing herbs list in the Respiratory II pdf but I was wondering if Grape leaf can be substiuted with one of these (Garlic, Turmeric, Ginger …)? Also, the list is not alphabetical so I was also wondering if it was in random order or purposeful? The Grape leaf is midway on the list of herbs but top herb (primary action) in the Cytokine Balance formula so I want to make sure I substitute with something equally as effective. Thanks, in advance, for your feedback.
I am stuggling to find eyebright and gumweed too …. I just don’t know if I can effectively substitute these or leave them out in other tinctures that I am making for this winter. They seem more supportive in the formulation … but just need feedback to learn.
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GCubed
Also curious of grape leaf could be substituted for muscadine leaf?
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Hi GCubed, I believe I can answer that for you using the Respiratory module from Doc Jones he talks about the plants and details Grape leaf (Vitis species) which means any plant in the species of “Vitis” and here is the Muscadine … Vitis rotundifolia, or muscadine, is a grapevine species native to the southeastern and south-central United States. If I had any of those Grape leaves , I would be all set for making the Cytokine balance and other formulas that I have in the waiting. I can’t get any grape leaves. Do you have access to Muscadine? That would solve my problem 😉
But still like to hear from Doc regarding my questions above regarding substitutes for future reference and because I asked about other herbs as well 🙂
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Don’t have any muscadines yet, but planning to plan some in the next year or two.
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Joelle
I used fresh wild muscadine leaf for this with immediate relief!
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Dr. Patrick Jones
Yup muscadine is good.
Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.
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Nancy Smith
Hi, I’m curious about this too. Grape leaf seems hard to come by if you’re not growing your own. I have used Japanese knotweed (Polygonum cuspidatum) when I needed a strong antioxidant, dealing with tickborne illness and covid. I don’t grow that either; I have purchased it in capsule form from the health food store. It’s used commercially as a source of resveratrol. I learned about it because Stephen Harrod Buhner recommends it in his books. I’d love to know if anyone else is familiar with this plant medicinally. It is a very invasive plant here in VA.
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Hello Nancy, I live in VA as well 🙂 Muscadine was a native plant in VA but I do not know of any around me. Everyone else on this post seems to be able to find some Grape leaves which depresses me as I have not been able to get my hands on a single leaf. I don’t want to waste the “hooch” if the substitute list would possiblly not be a good candidate in this particular formula, or maybe it would work just fine. I don’t know enough about them to confidently decide.
I’m growing Japanese knotweed in a tall pot. It seems happy enough for now. As you are harvesting the roots for Buhner protocol, I would expect that you could grow it in your yard. I would except we are trying to find larger property and move soon … I want to bring as much of my herbs as I can with me. In my mind, God gave us a prolific herb so that we CAN harvest the roots 😉 Happy Thanksgiving to one and all. D
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Chris Salles
Hi Dawn! I ran into the same issue. Ended up visiting a local winery, confirmed they didn’t use pesticides on their vines, and asked if I could pluck a bag of leaves from different vines. They had no problem with it, and didn’t even charge me for them! I did have to explain what I was going to do with them, and that turned into a nice conversation about herbs!
Hope this helps…
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bob taylor
We grow our own grapes and are constantly pruning back the vines and were throwing away the leaves. I will be saving them and drying them from now on. Perhaps we should have a spot where we can announce what herbs we have extra of and do some trading?
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Yes, I definitely need to grow grapes; but my question is trying to learn more about the substitutes. And as a side note, if you decide to grow grapes, keep them away from your dogs as they are toxic to them. (that is one of my issues in finding a place to put them.)
If anyone has learned more about the substitutes, please educate me. It seems Doc is very consistent with Grape leaves and I am nervous about using the other list as none of them seem to have much mention on the constituents that stop the cytokine storm and I have had a bad case of C in the past and want to be prepared for flu season. Also, and maybe most important, I just want to have a stronger understanding of these herbs/constituents. As Thanksgiving approaches, I hope it is a joyful memory for you and a day filled with family/friends.
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Joretta Windham
Dawn, I’m also interested in learning more about substitutes in our formulations. Thanks for starting this thread.
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I like grape leaf because of the resveratrol content. Japanese Knotweed (Polygonum cuspidatum) is also high in resveratrol. Grape skins actualy have as much or more than the leaf.
Bilberries and cranberries have some too though not as much as grape leaf. The other herbs on the cytokine list work in different ways but are also useful for cytokine storms. They aren’t in any particular order.
Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.
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Hi Doc, thank you for feedback. Can we get a little more detail on the cytokine action from the herbs on the pdf? I’m wondering, as Grape leaf is first on the Cytokine Balancing formula, how an herbalist would decide which alternative to use when grape leaf is not available. The all seem to have anti inflammatory properties in the list of herbs but also different actions (garlic’s expectorant and stims circulation, ginger stims circulation/reduces platelet aggregation, turmeric general anti inflam but affinity towards bile/liver). So, would I be guessing correctly to think garlic would be first choice when substituting grape leaf in the Cytokine Balance formula? Or , as you mentioned Reservatrol, would you prefer Japanese Knotweed for the substitute herb? It seems that Grape leaf is the major player so I want to be sure I follow the right process.
I’m having the same wall when making formulas with Eyebright in Histamine formula. Would you prefer a substitute like Rhemania (histamine balancing or immune amphoteric properties) or double Nettle (antihistamine/antiallergenic properties)?
(Is it “telling” of a bad flu season that noone has Eyebright herb for months now; I’ve been continually searching since Sept?)
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The herbs in the Cytokine balance formula affect cytokines and inflammation in different ways. If you want to replace resveratrol, use the knotweed.
For the Histamine formula you can just leave the eyebright out and that formula still works well.
If you’re having trouble getting individual herbs, we do sell all of those formulas in powders which you could then tincture yourself. :0)
https://homegrownherbalist.net/product-category/herbal-powders/formula-powders/
Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.
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Oh, I’m sorry. That is my question … are we looking for resveratrol or anti inflammation when we are deciding what to substitute Grape leaf? I don’t know what action is working from the Grape leaf in Cytokine Balance formula. You mentioned Resveratrol/knotweed in your first reply. When I was reviewed monographs for Garlic, Ginger, Turmeric (because they on the list of the other herbs that help with cytokine storms), I could not ascertain which would work. best. What constituent or action are we looking to replace? (I apologize if I am missing the obvious; I want to understand the formulation better because sometimes it’s a rockstar and sometimes it has that action but no where near comparatively among different herbs.)
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I am being thick. You said you like Resveratrol …. but I didn’t realize that this herbal action is what I needed to replace in the formula. In your Grape Leaf page in the Respiratory module you mentioned this; but, I did not see anything like it in the Cytokine reducing herb list because Japanese Knotweed is not included (on my printed page). I guess I needed more information on that action/reaction since Japanese Knotweed is not listed. Now that I reread your reply after rereading your module entry on Cytokine Storms. I see that it is resveratrol that I want to replace and the other herbs listed are working the lessen the cytokines in a different action, so none on that list will offer that as a substitute. Is that correct? I grow Knotweed so I can harvest it and already have all the other herbs. Yay! We’re in business 😉
thanks Doc!
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Dawn, keep asking questions. Nothing wrong with that. :0)
Yes, it’s the resveratrol that I’m after when using grape leaf and knotweed is also a good source and therefore a good substitute for that job.
Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.
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Hey Dawn, thanks for pursuing the resveratrol question! How are you cultivating the knotweed–is it difficult/invasive? What part of the plant is medicinal?
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Hi Nancy, thanks for asking … Japanese Knotweed is noted as potentially invasive in my area (zone 7) and I grew it in a very tall pot on my patio. It really likes to vine out so it’s pretty (heart-ish shaped leaves) but the root is the medicine. I would have no issue planting it in the ground. I really only used the pot for transplanting purposes. We are in search of our “forever” home with several acres to use/cultivate. This plant will be going with me so I put it in a pot to take with me 🙂 I beleive it takes a prolific grower to be able to harvest roots … you couldn’t grow a root medicine sustainably otherwise. But, do a little research for your area so you won’t be upset with the results … and be sure to dig up those roots if it has potential invasive tendency in your area too. (I have not experienced it as any thing like Kudzu … and that is medicine too, albeit so invasive that it is taking over the southeast.) I hope that helps but feel free to ask if I failed to give enough info.
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