Substitutions needed for some formulas (THANK YOU!)

[SharonStudent]

It seems no matter HOW many herbs I have, there will certainly be some formulas that I am missing one ingredient, and it’s generally something I don’t need for any other use at the time.  Sorry for how long this is, but I’m trying to build my apothecary to include all the formulas!  So that said, can you smart ones help me with some substitutions (the ones in question are in italics)?

• ADRENAL SUPPORT RECIPE:

  1 part Ashwaghanda, 1 part Fo Ti Root, 1 part Ginkgo leaf, 1 part Oat straw, 1 part Rehmannia root, & the one I need to sub: 1 part Schisandra berry

• BLOOD BUILDER RECIPE:

  2 parts Astragalus, to sub: 1 Dong Quai, 1 part Nettle leaf, 1 part Parsley leaf, 2 parts Rehmannia, 2 parts Yellow Dock root

• CANDIDA FORMULA
  1 Bergamot, 1 Black Walnut, 1 Garlic, to sub: 1 Goldenrod, 1 Olive Leaf, 1 Oregon grape, 1 Pau d’Arco

 

• CIRCULATORY SUPPORT
  .5 Cayenne (1 T), 1 Ginkgo, 2 Hawthorn berry, to sub: 2 Linden, 1 Valerian
• CYTOKINE BALANCE
  1 Garlic, 1 Ginger Rt, to sub (can’t find it anywhere): 4 Grape Leaf, 1 Milk Thistle, 1 Skullcap (only have tincture available for this one), 2 Turmeric Rt
• THYROID – STIM RECIPE
  

  1 Ashwagandha Root, need to sub: 1 Bupleurum Root, 1 Chamomile Flower, 1 Ginger Root, 1 Lobelia Aerial Parts, 1 Milk Thistle Seed, 1 Mullein Leaf, 1 Parsley Leaf, need to sub: 1 Sarsaparilla Root

• HISTAMINE
  2 Brigham Tea, to sub: 1 Eyebright, 1 Nettle leaf, 1 Oregon grape
• INFXN – BUG BUSTER
  1 Calendula, to sub: 5 Chaparral leaf, 1 Echinacea, 1 Garlic, 1 Gumweed (I only have tincture, no herb), to sub: 1 Myrrh, 1 Oregon grape
• INFXN – EPSTEIN BARR
to sub: 4 Chaparral Leaf, 2 Ginger Root, 1 Licorice Root, to sub: 3 Passionflower Aerial Parts, 3 SJW Flower, 3 Turmeric Root
• KIDNEY BUILDER RECIPE

  2 Astragalus, 2 Chamomile, 1 Cleavers, 1 Marsh root, to sub: 2 Nettle seed, 2 Rehmannia

• KIDNEY G.O.U.T.

  1 Alfalfa, 1 Ashwagandha, 1 Burdock, 1 Gravel, 1 Plantain, to sub: 1 Sarsaparilla

• MEMORY & ALERTNESS

  1 Ashwagandha root, 2 Ginkgo, sub Siberian? 1 Panax Ginseng, to sub: 2 Sage (maybe Rosemary?)

• NUTRITIVE

  1 Alfalfa, 1 Burdock, to sub: 2 Chaga, 1 Dandelion root, 1 Flax Seed, 1 Nettle leaf

• PROSTATE SUPPORT

  1 Cornsilk, 1 Lobelia, 1 Nettle root, 1 Parsley root, to sub: 1 Saw Palmetto, 1 Uva Ursi

• RESPIRATORY COF

  to sub: 2 Cherry Bark, 1 Cramp Bark, 1 Licorice, 1 Lobelia, 1 Marsh root, 2 Mullein

• RESPIRATORY SHOO FLOO

  to sub: 1 Chaparral, 1 Echinacea Root or Flower, 1 Elder leaf/berry, 1 Garlic, to sub: 1 Grape leaf, 1 Peppermint, 1 SJW flower, 1 Yarrow

• STOMACH ULCER

  1 Calendula, to sub: 1 GoTu Kola, 1 Licorice, 1 Marsh root, 1 Plantain, 1 Turmeric

  SORRY for the long list – I thought it would be best to include the entire recipe so that it’s easier for you guys to suggest a substitute!  Thanks in advance MUCHO!!

   

4 users thanked author for this post.

Linnette Lomba Giraldez, SharonB, Carol Blanchard, Gibby

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Still hoping to get some answers.  Please.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Gibby

[SUZANNEStudent]

Hello Sharon,

I too am waiting for a reply to your post as I am sure others are as well. I have only been a student here since Dec 2023 and don’t have the answers for you. I have wondering the same thing since I have so many herbs, but not all of them.

There is so much to learn about everything and right now I am overwhelmed by it all.  So I am asking if Doc Jones could please do a lesson/video on how to start to substitute different herbs for formulas. What do we look for first? How do we know that those herbs will work together with each other. It would be nice if he would do an outline to go by so we all could learn this…Thank you for asking this question to start with, Sharon. I hope we can get a response from Doc.

5 users thanked author for this post.

Vasiliki Giannoula, Linnette Lomba Giraldez, SharonB, Carol Blanchard, Sharon

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Suzanne – thanks for seconding the need for this info.  I hope Doc is back in the saddle again now and can find time to help us with this – I agree with you – I’m sure that MANY of us here need this type of information!

[Colleen BrownStudent]

This would be a very useful lesson on how to substitute herbs in the formulas  I am up in Canada and it is very difficult to obtain some of these herbs but I would love to know how to choose substitutes as well to be a better herbalist.  Doc Jones can you please consider answering this question and also doing a lesson or series of lessons on this topic?   Thank you

1 user thanked author for this post.

Sharon

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Colleen – you are 100% right, we need a lesson or series of lessons on HOW to substitute (which would also be a lesson on how to create our own formulas/what to use or not use together).  I’m sure you have issues getting many of the herbs that are easier for us in the USA, so I can see how this would really be helpful for you and others outside the USA.

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

This was originally posted on Feb 7th when I had some spare time to tincture up a bunch of formulas.  Now as the garden is just about to spring to life, time is not as available, but I’m still hoping for some substitution answers so I can “squeeze” in (pun intended) some tincturing before full on garden chaos takes over my life!  So even if you can only help with one formula – that’s one more that I could start on!  Thank you in advance all!

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Still hoping for some help.  I’m not confident at all in my ideas for substitutions, so I’m reaching out to all of you since Doc isn’t on the group much these days (*we miss you Doc!)

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Looks like a good video for us all – how to determine what to use if you need to substitute!  **Hint, hint Doc** LOL!

[Judy MillerStudent]

Hi all,  I’m a new student, but I think the solution to these questions lies in knowing the (leading) properties of each herb.  What is the purpose of the formula?  What are all the needs to be met in the condition?  Example:  irritating cough, weary, congestion, (not by asthma).  So you’ll want something to soothe the throat and bronchial tubes: that would be mallow, marshmallow, hollyhock, or elm.  For congestion, you want an expectorant to bring up the mucus from the lungs and bronchi, as well as anticatarrhals which work in the upper respiratory area.  Mullein, garlic, Elecampane, Elder, Hyssop all work for both locations, but there are also others that “focuses” on one or the other.  You’ll want an anti-viral, antibiotic, antimicrobial to get rid of pathogens that may have caused the illness:  raw garlic, Echinacea, and St. John’s Wort  (anti-virals); Calendula, Plantain, Sage, Chamomile (antibiotics).  Does the person also need an anti-inflammatory from coughing hard and long?  Yarrow, Calelndula, Mallow, Comfrey, Chickweed, Hyssop.  What about something to calm the mind and body so the person can rest?  A relaxant nervine would do well:  Chamomile, St. John’s Wort, Hyssop, Kava Kava, Catnip, Lemon Balm are just a few options.  How about a nutritive to help the body with the nutrition it needs to heal itself?  Chickweed, Alfalfa, Stinging Nettles, and Red Clover.  Lastly, a Catalyst could bring everything together, and enhance the formula:  Cayenne, Black Pepper, Cinnamon, Ginger, Peppermint, Licorice, or Turmeric.  Most of this was covered in the early lessons:  Principals of Herbal Therapy, and some in the two books from Doc Jones.  Note, many of the herbs have multiple healing properties, so your formula doesn’t have to have many herbs.       Another way to look at it is to go to the Plant Modules and look at the herb you’re missing, and see what it’s principle properties are, then look for a substitute with those properties.  Again, early on in the course, the lesson on Etymology:  Learning the Lingo ~ the terminology of herbal actions covers so much of this:  what the properties are and a list of several herbs that have that healing property.    His books list the herbs he’d most want if he didn’t have access to them all, so probably what’s in his two books would be doable.     Hope this helps.

4 users thanked author for this post.

Beth Stowell, Sharon, SharonB, Christie Wentz

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Judy, very helpful.  WHEN I have some spare time, I will dig into this a bit more.  My hopes were (because of my insane schedule that just keeps getting in the way of the course materials) to get some suggestions for the various tinctures so I could just do a tincture or two as I have a few minutes.  That’s faster than digging thru the course at this insanely busy time of my life – but your comment/instructions are very helpful, so thank you very much!

2 users thanked author for this post.

SUZANNE, Kristin

[Christie WentzStudent]

I have found that Mountain Rose Herbs has most herbs. I know they ethically source and dry their herbs out. I do not have all those herbs in my area. Cramp bark even though is everywhere in Idaho, I can’t seem to get my hands on any and ALL the legit sites are out to purchase from.

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Hey Christie – just wanted to mention my favorite “go-to” herb store (I like Mountain Rose ok, but I really, really like the one I use).  MountainMausRemedies dot com – most things are organic, dried low heat to preserve the properties, and you have lots of choices on what amount you want of each product.  She also has certified organic as well as organic that isn’t certified, and wild crafted.  Hope this helps.

[DawnStudent]

Hello All, I had the same substitution/availability issues as Sharon about the same time too.  I was able to hear from Doc on the question for Grape Leaf substitute which is Japanese Knotweed if you find that. Those have the best effect on lowering cytokines. I decided to purchase some Grape to grow around my yard to have it in the future because, when I broke down and purchased some from etsy, I regretted it as the leaves looked like diseased. Others that I had trouble finding were Self Heal, Calendula, Chaparral and Gumweed. Reverie Farm LLC grows organic and sells many of my needed herbs with high quality whole specimens. You can try there next time.

[Kaye ReidStudent]

I have ordered a lot of seed from Strictly Medicinal with a very good germination rate. I have planted lots here that I hadn’t found local. I also ordered a couple of Old Fashion Snowball bush online. I ask locally on FB if anyone had one that I could get cuttings from but all I heard as reply is my grandma had a huge one while I was growing up. They were about a foot high last year when I planted them but they are growing very fast this year. Just shared this because growing your own although it may take a few years to be able to harvest them, sure will be good down the road.

 

Kaye Reid

[SharonBStudent]

Another Sharon here.  I live in northern NH and some of the ones like gumweed don’t grow here.  I’m looking for wild herbs I can find in my area.  When I have time, I’m researching things that grow wild here to learn their properties but would hesitate to substitute stuff in a formula without more instructions.  So I’d love a session on what properties can be mixed.  Also how do you figure how much you might need of something that isn’t as strong as the one in the formula.  When I was taking the medicine making lesson, the quiz included making a lotion.  I had StJohns wort infused so needed to pick something to add to the water you use in turning the salve into a lotion.  I had dried cayenne handy so made a tea with it.  It wasn’t my first choice cuz I didn’t really know what to use but it was convenient.  It did wonders for some nerve issues in my neck, handles pain really well.  I would really appreciate a class that explains more about that with a quiz where we need to make our own recipe and submit it on the forum for Doc’s comments.

[Debra AnderslandStudent]

You can also just leave the herb out and not substitute at all.

[Dr. Patrick JonesHomestead Instructor]

Yours in plain text mine in Bold.

I should probably do a lesson on formulation principles that addresses questions like this. Good question Sharon.

OK, so to start with, in a formula there are generally two types of herbs, the rock starts that do the job and some back up singers that do other nice things. I usually have more than one rock star because I like addressing things from more than one angle. So, if droppping one herb from a formula usually isn’t a deal breaker for the formula doing a good job. Heck, for many of them you cold use just one herb and get good results. So, let’s look at your questions and see who’s who in the line up.

It seems no matter HOW many herbs I have, there will certainly be some formulas that I am missing one ingredient, and it’s generally something I don’t need for any other use at the time.  Sorry for how long this is, but I’m trying to build my apothecary to include all the formulas!  So that said, can you smart ones help me with some substitutions (the ones in question are in italics)?

• ADRENAL SUPPORT RECIPE:1 part Ashwaghanda, 1 part Fo Ti Root, 1 part Ginkgo leaf, 1 part Oat straw, 1 part Rehmannia root, & the one I need to sub: 1 part Schisandra berry

Other options that’d be good adaptogens like Schisandra: Siberian ginseng, Rhodiola, Astragalus, holy basil, licorice, etc…

• BLOOD BUILDER RECIPE:2 parts Astragalus, to sub: 1 Dong Quai, 1 part Nettle leaf, 1 part Parsley leaf, 2 parts Rehmannia, 2 parts Yellow Dock root

  If you don’t have dong quai,, regular Angelica is good. Or just leave it out. The others can do the job.

• CANDIDA FORMULA
  1 Bergamot, 1 Black Walnut, 1 Garlic, to sub: 1 Goldenrod, 1 Olive Leaf, 1 Oregon grape, 1 Pau d’Arco

All of these guys are good antifungals. If you leave out the goldenrod, they’ll do fine. You could add some fire weed if you wanted.

 

• CIRCULATORY SUPPORT
  .5 Cayenne (1 T), 1 Ginkgo, 2 Hawthorn berry, to sub: 2 Linden, 1 Valerian

Linden does some things a little differently than the others but there are other good hypertension herbs. I like hibiscus a lot. Look at the hypertension lesson. There are some good choices there.

• CYTOKINE BALANCE
  1 Garlic, 1 Ginger Rt, to sub (can’t find it anywhere): 4 Grape Leaf, 1 Milk Thistle, 1 Skullcap (only have tincture available for this one), 2 Turmeric Rt

IMO, grape leaf is a must have in this formula. Japanese knotweed and hops have lots of resveratrol but I haven’t tried either for a cytokine storm.

• THYROID – STIM RECIPE
   

  1 Ashwagandha Root, need to sub: 1 Bupleurum Root, 1 Chamomile Flower, 1 Ginger Root, 1 Lobelia Aerial Parts, 1 Milk Thistle Seed, 1 Mullein Leaf, 1 Parsley Leaf, need to sub: 1 Sarsaparilla Root

  Hmmm…..this one is harder because the effects of all of these herbs are often indirect on thyroid stimulation so “replacing them” is harder. I’d look at Siberian ginseng, licorice, Rhodiola, Coleus, Guggul… all of those guys also have some tyroid supporting/stimulating actions.

 

• HISTAMINE
  2 Brigham Tea, to sub: 1 Eyebright, 1 Nettle leaf, 1 Oregon grape

Just drop the eyebright. 

• INFXN – BUG BUSTER
  1 Calendula, to sub: 5 Chaparral leaf, 1 Echinacea, 1 Garlic, 1 Gumweed (I only have tincture, no herb), to sub: 1 Myrrh, 1 Oregon grape

You can drop any of these and/or add other antibiotic herbs. We’re just throwing a lot of antibiotics together here for a very diverse weapon against the bugs.

• INFXN – EPSTEIN BARR
to sub: 4 Chaparral Leaf, 2 Ginger Root, 1 Licorice Root, to sub: 3 Passionflower Aerial Parts, 3 SJW Flower, 3 Turmeric Root

Calendula and lemon balm are good at suppressing herpes. Use those.

• KIDNEY BUILDER RECIPE2 Astragalus, 2 Chamomile, 1 Cleavers, 1 Marsh root, to sub: 2 Nettle seed, 2 Rehmannia

Nettle seed is the rock star. I’d be sad to lose it. The formula will have some benefit without it. But none of those guys are as amazing as nettle seed.

• KIDNEY G.O.U.T.1 Alfalfa, 1 Ashwagandha, 1 Burdock, 1 Gravel, 1 Plantain, to sub: 1 Sarsaparilla

  You can leave out the sarsaparilla or replace it with other good diuretics and anti-inflammatories (that’s what it’s doing) Nettle leaf, turmeric, ginger, dandelion, etc…

• MEMORY & ALERTNESS1 Ashwagandha root, 2 Ginkgo, sub Siberian? 1 Panax Ginseng, to sub: 2 Sage (maybe Rosemary?)

  Any of the three ginsengs will do. Rosemary is a good sub for sage. But sage is really pretty easy to access.

• NUTRITIVE1 Alfalfa, 1 Burdock, to sub: 2 Chaga, 1 Dandelion root, 1 Flax Seed, 1 Nettle leaf

Nothing is like chaga. Just add another nutritious herb you like.

• PROSTATE SUPPORT1 Cornsilk, 1 Lobelia, 1 Nettle root, 1 Parsley root, to sub: 1 Saw Palmetto, 1 Uva Ursi

  It’d probably work pretty well without the saw palmetto. I don’t have anything very similar to that one.

• RESPIRATORY COFto sub: 2 Cherry Bark, 1 Cramp Bark, 1 Licorice, 1 Lobelia, 1 Marsh root, 2 Mullein

  Cherry bark is great but the formula is fine with just the others….or just mullein. LOL

• RESPIRATORY SHOO FLOOto sub: 1 Chaparral, 1 Echinacea Root or Flower, 1 Elder leaf/berry, 1 Garlic, to sub: 1 Grape leaf, 1 Peppermint, 1 SJW flower, 1 Yarrow

Again, these are a bunch of antiviral herbs. If you drop the chapparal it’ll still be a good formula. The grape leaf is there to help with high cytokines sometimes seen in influenza and corona infections (see abot on cytokine support notes)

• STOMACH ULCER1 Calendula, to sub: 1 GoTu Kola, 1 Licorice, 1 Marsh root, 1 Plantain, 1 Turmeric

   

   

• This one will work without the gotu kola.
• SORRY for the long list – I thought it would be best to include the entire recipe so that it’s easier for you guys to suggest a substitute!  Thanks in advance MUCHO!!

  You’re mucho welcome. I really will do a lesson on this idea. It’s important. :0)

Don't use herbs or combine herbs with medications or use them during lactation or pregnancy without talking with your healthcare provider.

4 users thanked author for this post.

Beth Stowell, Gibby, Linnette Lomba Giraldez, Sharon

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

THANKS DOC!!!  You have no idea how thankful I am for all this wonderful information.  There are a couple of the herbs that I will make a point to find, some I have found since I first asked the question, and some I will use one of the substitutes you mentioned.  One thing I still have nagging my brain is how to use a TINCTURE as part of the formula.  The one I’m thinking of primarily is gumweed since it just seemed to be much nicer (questionable term since it was a sticky mess of massive proportions) to deal with as a fresh herb tincture vs trying to dry it – thus I have no dried herb – only tincture to work with.  One quick side note since I have you here, how valuable is dried St John’s Wort for tincture?  I ordered some fresh, but the US Postal system did what it did best and delayed the package terribly, so the herb wasn’t wilted when it arrived – it was dry as a box of bones!  Thanks again so much for your kind and helpful answers!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Valérie

[Greg BoggsStudent]

Hey Sharon, Doc has said in another post somewhere here on the forum that he uses dried St John’s Wort all the time

1 user thanked author for this post.

Sharon

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Good to know this Greg – thanks for posting!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Greg Boggs

[Shaundele LeatherberryStudent]

Hi Doc,

I was thinking something similar the other day. I know in your lessons, you talk about substitute herbs and which herbs can fill in for others, but when I try to remember which lesson it was, I can never find it! The search bar doesn’t work for that either. Maybe you could post a list of herbs that work as substitutes? That would be awesome. Gumweed is one that is hard to find (although I grow it now) and Brigham Tea. Just an idea. Thanks!

[SharonStudentTopic Author]

Hey Doc – thank you for all you do.  Mind if I ask if the lesson on formulation principles is out and I missed it?  Also same question for the pharmaceutical intervention information?  It would be such a relief to know that we (and friends of ours) are not mixing things that shouldn’t be used together!  Stay well and have a great day whenever you read this 🙂

[Shaundele LeatherberryStudent]

Just a late note on this. In the summer, find people with grapes and harvest the leaves and dry them. Same with olive leaves, raspberry leaves etc…..They are sometimes really hard to find but grape leaves are everywhere!

Also, Mountain Rose Herbs does carry most things.

 

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